Hummm, spend $3,000,000 to earn $80,000 a year, a 2.6% simple return on investment. Sounds like we are contemplating "beating a dead horse".

It would be interesting to see a business plan for the Marina that took all the factors into account, operating expense, normal maintenance, deferred maintenance and existing debt service as well as capital improvement costs. Then an informed decision could be made regarding the future of the Marina and whether an innovative plan such as John Fuller has suggested has a chance of working.

Shooting in the dark with grants, donations and wishful thinking is not going to fly in this economy.

And....how long will one dredge last?.....and it took some old timers to tell the committee that the problem is not the wall but silt settling? And how much did we spend to get the wrong information? And how much did we spend spinning our wheels going after money from the state? Do we see a pattern here? I'm not a marine expert but I knew this information long ago. How much longer must we deal with incompetence? I'm mad!

Anyone remember the first ferry slip that is now dry land? I have lived here for 68yrs - 60 of which I have watched the continual silting of the marina area. Might be that the only possibility of positive income at the marina would be a new ferry service because the channel at the end fishing pier seems to naturally stay clear of silt due to the current.
I would think that a barrier down to bed rock to hold back the shifting soil and a sea wall on the river side to deflect the silt carrying current from entering the marina might be the only solution. The more you dredge the more it will back fill. It's like digging a hole in sand!

How much of the $80,000 a year would have to be paid to Martinez Marina LP as stipulated in the city management agreement? What would be the cities share? I stated earlier this year in Dec the new operator or DBW would only have to dredge the main fairway not the entire Marina from the launch ramp to the mouth of the river. If DBW took it back their will be no need for a marina management company or operator or ever the city no fancy contracts that no one lives up to no more studies to waste staff time no more hired consultants and money wasted on reports. You pay the honors box witch they collect fees using one person for boat launchings fees not an entire management team and or team of city staff. Please remember the city doesn’t own this facility it only operates it. Read the sign at the launch ramp. In the last 13 years the Marina has not even generated enough money to pay for even a practical dredge. This money was all come out of the general funds. There is no profit now and the pie in sky renovation scheme the city has gone on and on and on for over 13 years and were we today. You can stop the red ink today by letting the DBAW take the waterside of the marina back. They will maintain it as a launch and recovery facility for weekend boaters and fisherman. I know that this is not a popular view but it is something that would save our city millions of dollars. Think about it.

Anyone know why its going to cost 3 million to do this dredging project when in the past it was closer to $500,000.00. Any one know how many cubic yards is in this estimate.?Anyone know who the engineer is coming up with this figure? Anyone know how long it takes to get approval for this dredging?

Recreation manager Mitch Austin explained to Mayor Rob Schroder and City Councilman Mark Ross that the new plan is to dredge the entrance and the A and B docks, and rebuild part of C dock. He also estimated the cost of the work, including soil engineering.

I have corrected a major error in the story - the dredging is estimated to cost $800,000, of which $300,000 would come from Measure WW funds, and the remainder from the anticipated Shell Refinery donation. I regret the error.

Thanks for the rewrite of this story Jim. Austin estimated that the marina could generate as much as $80,000 a year with a 60 percent occupancy rate. And the dredging will cost about $800,000, he said, with $300,000 coming from Measure WW funds and an anticipated $500,000 donation from the Shell Refinery. And we will need to dredge every 4 to 5 years we will only be able to come up with $400,000 witch is only half the total cost of the job. Will Shell be donating the rest of money to dredge ever 5 years from now on?

Here's a town with half of it's stores sitting vacant, there's talk of increasing the parking meter fees - then there's all this concern over the marina and who's going to pay for what and how much they are going to pay. Wouldn't it be great to have people come into town to dine and shop - now that's positive returns for minimal investments. People looking at berthed boats is very nice and quaint but it doesn't do much for the city's downtown economy or attractiveness.

As well as politcians and friends saying I love boats and thinking a marina can be viable by simply saying so. The return on investment shows little return and not return enough to mantian it self (dredging).

The vision describing and what are your policies are the same old tools used by the city council to try push foward other ill conceived notions When the greater pulbic challended there baseless schemes. Notions that had no plans or proof of success, the money grabbing, money wasting polices.

Don't ask me!!! Ask the owners of the down town buildings and the city governing groups what they can do? And yes, it has always been a problem attracting business's into the city that could bring in customers and increasing the cost to come to shop here or having a pristine marina for occasional visitors to look at just doesn't seem to fit the bill in my mind. It might help to step back and look at the whole problem not just a piece of it. Besides, the marina will always be a money pit and with the economy being what it is today why not redirect tax monies into services that are/have been reduced and also trim out some other unnecessary expenditures. Without public support this is all rhetoric anyway because just a few are running the whole show here and telling everyone how good it all is.

With all due respect to Mr. Austin and the council's Marina Subcommittee, I would like all who consider the marina--even in its current state--a money pit, to follow along with me while we do a little 4th grade arithmetic. Using Google Map/earth imaging and the current published rate schedule for the marina at http://www.martinez-marina.com/ we can estimate the potential marina revenue pretty accurately. Ready? Here goes:

A Dock:
35ea Single Slips @ $285/mo (avg*) = $9975/mo = $119,700/yr
44ea Double Slips @ $199/mo (avg) = $8756/mo = $105,072/yr
End Tie @ $906/mo = $10,872/yr
Presuming 10ea Liveaboards @ $183/mo extra = $1830/mo = $21,960/yr

B Dock:
54ea Double Slips @ $199/mo (avg) = $10,746/mo = $128,952
End Tie @ $906/mo = $10,872/yr
Presuming 5ea Liveaboards @ $183/extra = $1830/mo = $21,960/yr

C Dock:
39ea Double Slips @ $199/mo (avg) = $7761/mo = $93,132/yr
End Tie @ $721/mo = $8652/yr

Continued Below...

(Continued from above)

D & E Docks:
56ea Double Slips @ $199/mo (avg) = $11,144/mo = $133,728/yr
64ea Double Slips (small 20') @ $106/mo = $6784/mo = $81,408/yr
End Tie D-Dock @ $631/mo = $7572/yr
End Tie E-Dock @ $519/mo = $6228/yr

Utility Fees (shore power & water) collected if 50% of slips participate: $13,320/yr
Dock Locker Rental Fees collected with 50% participation: $7,104/yr
Boat Launch Fees collected if a mere 20 boats/day launch: $73,000/yr

Total Revenue potential if all CURRENTLY USABLE slips were rented as above:
$1,005,316 (One Million Five Thousand Three Hundred Sixteen Dollars)

The above is only for the currently usable docks. There are 91 missing slips that have fallen apart, and need replacement, and would add a potential $280,000+ to the above revenue stream if a businesslike vision of Return on Investment were the modus operandi.

The rates currently charged are discounted from current market rates based on a perusal of other nearby marinas. Where estimation and assumptions are made in this illustration, the intention was to err on the side of less revenue than is likely to be actual...to be conservative.

* Single & Double Slip fees are an average of the four lowest rates, averaged for this illustration.

So Paul, when you wrote above: " Austin estimated that the marina could generate as much as $80,000 a year with a 60 percent occupancy rate."

Just curious, did he show anybody a spreadsheet or any means by which he calculated that miserably low (IMHO) estimate?

Now minus $400,000.00 per year for bi-annual dredging that's $800,000.00 divided by 2. x 15% for anticipated cost increase that makes it $460,000.00 per year. I don't think dredging every 5 years is going to work.

One other very important fact about this situation. There is no place to dump the mud anymore, they screwed that up too. So now it has to be taken outside of Martinez. This has basically tripled the contractors price.

If it isn't disallowed it probably should be Patrick - pump it from the marina and pile it on top of the tidal front - might the weight cause more to be pushed back out into the marina? Once dredged and repaired if it were to stay that way for a couple of decades it wouldn't be a money pit. Got money to spend? How about our schools? Even a better return the buck! Parents are doing everything they possibly can to save the music & sports programs while we argue about pouring money into the marina. Ironic that if all interest goes into the marina all you will have is a marina - no town.

Yes there is an approved site for dumping however according to my sources, they did not clean it out or were unable to sell it off, but this could be old news and they have successfully cleared the area .. Do you know how many cubic yards is being dredged? The last bid was $400,000.00 for 50,000 cubic yards.Just trying to do the math on this one.

Whose numbers? The Patch first story or the Patch second rewrite or the Gazette story today such a wide range of numbers is put out? From the Patch ‘’The dredging will cost about $800,000, he said, with $300,000 coming from Measure WW funds and an anticipated $500,000 donation from the Shell Refinery.’’ Than from the Gazette ‘’ The City must use available monies to do a dredge just to keep the marina in operation, said Austin. To pay for that dredge, City Hall intends to use $1.7 million in Measure WW funding from the East Bay Regional Park District's Measure WW, and a $500,000 grant from Shell Refinery.’’ It would stand to reason if ‘’Recreation manager Mitch Austin explained to Mayor Rob Schroder and City Councilman Mark Ross that the new plan is to dredge the entrance and the A and B docks, and rebuild part of C dock. He also estimated the cost of the work, including soil engineering.’’ Could be the higher number of the two. Pat I think someone is pulling your lag in regards to disposal of dredging spoils. Army Corp. of engineers, State and Federal regulations don’t quite see it same way that you have presented it here. Most dredging spoils are treated as hazardous materials. Maria the city did remove some of the old dredged material from the dredge ponds within the last two months it was covered for a time at the boater’s parking lot but I don’t know for sure where they moved it? All this should have been done under permits.

Time to let the Marina go. Way to much energy, effort, money and City resources are being wasted trying to put off the inevitable. The Marina operation, as it is currently defined, is not viable and the debt hanging over the operation precludes any reasonable solution given the current and foreseeable economic conditions.
The real prioritiy should be the often talked about but little addressed economic revitalization of the Downtown core area. As announced at the begining of last year, the County offices are basically gone. Nothing has been accomplished in terms of developing the necessary strategy to backfill the loss to support the business district let alone grow a more diverse selection of businesses.
The City Manager initiated the "Downtown Matters" effort which, while a step in the right direction, failed to get any real traction in the community and received only "lip service" at best from the Council. Having "been there, done that" with no results, leadership credibility is at an all low. Without timely follow through, it's just more wishful thinking.
There is a definite failure on the part of the City to focus, develop viable strategies, and execute. The resulting back log of issues and concerns, not dealt with correctly and in a timely fashion, ends up overburdening the limited City staff. In the end, the City of Martinez suffers missed opportunities and fails to support the efforts of the struggling private sector in these trying economic times.

I agree - well said Dick! Use money on efforts that improve the community for all to enjoy, attract new businesses and revitalize the city in entirety not just pour it into the marina.

Seemingly, only Marshall Cochrane sees what I see. Business 101.

Unlike parks, libraries, swimming pools, landscaped traffic medians, decorative paving bricks, fireworks, police overtime for various festivities, and all the other categories of city budget items that represent money going out; with absolutely no illusion on the part of anybody that any of these public expenditures or amenities will ever--in this city or any city--come close to breaking even, a marina...is a cash cow. At least it has the potential to be. The real questions are, then:

Whose cow? Whose cash? Why is an enterprise that is profitably replicated hundreds of times over in California alone (thousands of times over across the USA), losing money in Martinez, California USA? Every city wishes they were geographically able to have one. We are.

Scrolling up the comments, you will see that this marina has the potential to gross around $1.2 - $1.3 million (2011) dollars per year. Once again, I must ask the curmudgeons among us to do some basic business 101 arithmetic. After subtracting annually:

Salaries, taxes, utilities, insurance & maintenance (at current levels) $400,000/year
Miscellaneous $100,000/yr
Reserve set-aside for:
Dock replacement/rebuilding - $50,000 per year
Maintenance dredging every three years - $250,000 per year ($750K/dredge)
Building/amenity replacement (roof, laundry, paint, etc.) $25,000 per year

That leaves EXCESS REVENUE of between $375,000 and $475,00 every year!!!

Continued-

Continued from above:

That excess revenue (I guess municipalities are not allowed to call it profit) could offset the cost of parks, libraries, swimming pools, landscaped traffic medians, decorative paving bricks, fireworks, police overtime for various festivities, teacher supplies, and all the other categories of city budget items that represent tax money going out.

Now, I understand the frustration of concerned citizens who think that boats in a marina are merely idle decorations that we the people are paying for, when many do not own, or even necessarily like boats, boaters or anything having to do with boats or boaters. I don't know. Maybe your daughters ran off with a sailor.

The city has few amenities that can not only pay for themselves, but offset other expenses that would otherwise have to be paid for through taxes. A well-run marina is one of them. "Well run" being the operative words.

Last week, Commissioner Fuller floated a proposal that would create a separate marina/waterfront district that would take over the city’s current responsibility for operating the marina, as well as maintain and develop the acreage of recreational amenities from the bay to the railroad tracks. Investments in new recreational facilities compatible with EBRPD's guidelines would be with private investors and bonds for capital improvements would NOT BE SECURED BY PROPERTY TAXES OR ANY TAXPAYER MONEY.

If you truly believe the marina is a money hole, support the new district. Then watch. And learn.

I agree it is time for the city to let the marina and waterfront go. If they show the wisdom to do so, the new district can begin to demonstrate what can be done to bring new interest to downtown. New interest to the downtown is what will drive the renaissance everyone wants. Dick is correct. The county teat is drying up fast. New housing does not create interest in, or value to a downtown. It’s the other way around. America is awash in glorious yet vacant housing, developed with visionary ignorance of this basic truth.

All taken into consideration I still can't imagine how the marina would be effective in drawing people into Martinez. The water front park, swimming park, shops, restaurants, AMTRAK, the quaintness of the city and the public entertainment functions now those are a draw. If private interests want to repair, maintain and operate the marina without the use of public funds thats fine - it's their loss or gain whichever the case may be. With the economy being what it currently is and the city budget coming up I hope some logic will prevail - Martinez doesn't need any more service cuts.

In Sausalito there are floating condos--condos on foam blocks that don't need much water to float. I hope everyone understands that the Marina lay waste because the Council was waiting for a Redevelopment Agency, meanwhile sucking any related money away. You get that, yes? So any new effort really does not need to account for the past except for the existing physical conditions.

What is imagined is another siphone of public money there is no private land to fund a district. Much is being egnored and magical thinking is taking over. The waterfront resource can be enjoyed more by having a restraunt now, a cafe now, and we can sit at the edge of the bay. And if you want the dream, sit and dream, and if a marinia is in the future we can watch it be built or improved. Concentrate on the waterfront with pacsive recreation uses and a boat launch with a bait shop, promanod. Things we all came enjoyed at a small expense considering.

Stay on subject the point is Resturant, cafe, easly installted, things that are doable. Move away from the failled approaches, grand schemes. Including making up reality as Rob and Mark have done. Much that has be said has no real bases in fact. the problems connot be solved by doing more of the same.
These are physical challenges that are beyond our resourses.

Withmar-Exactly right!

@Patrick: just because I like your voice: "Our limitations are our best friends, for it is from them we know how to build." --Frank Lloyd Wright.

Money is, generally speaking, the easy part. If you have a really good idea and the ability to communicate, sell if you will, you can" find the money". Our biggest problem in this community is that ideas are not welcome, vision is limited and working leadership is lacking.

Watch out for the tyrany of ideas and those who make them at other expence. Ideas are in fact not hard to cone by, good doable ones like getting a resturant and cafe up and running. A project that we pretty much all want. Separate the doabe from the dream and do true consencus building on whose money to spend, can we have a truly viable marina for public use. Or in something else more pratical. Maybe a toll free boat ramp wuth no overhead in collecting fees. There is one of in Benicia.

The council took 12 or more years to distroy the marina including the restaurant area. So much of what is said make no practical sense in terms of taking a structure not designed for the the use of a resturant. But the are ways to have a Cafe up and running in Six month to a year. And a restaurant a littlee longer. No dredging required, no rebuilding of a misdesigned break water. The point is to consintrate on the eateres independent of the failed attempts to be gifted a new marina. This isn't about what any one person has not done. Or almost done. But about getting something more people want on a new and yes more easily accomplisted manner.

I don't think anybody here is under the illusion that a new or refurbished marina is going to be "gifted." Quite the contrary. I argue that once separated from the city, a new Marina Park District can facilitate outside investments, and issue muni bonds for the repair of the east sea wall, south shoreline, and to plan and construct one or two marina eateries... the cuisine to be determined based on negotiations with restaurateurs willing to "tenant improve" a sturdy shell, custom built on piers via bond money based on long term leases, as well as all the revenue streams listed above to service the debt. It's very possible for non-tax funds to develop a beautiful and diversified recreation/entertainment/dining destination from water to tracks if well planned, well presented, well sold to outside investors with their analysts and auditors. Be sure of one thing: pipe-dream fantasies will not fly. Only certifiably viable projects will.

The harbormaster building is not an unused or unnecessary shell. The lower half is for the restrooms, as well as laundry and showers for liveaboards (paying clientele). To reconfigure the upper floor of that building to be a three or four table coffee shop (at best) would be too costly for accommodating all the mandatory access and health regs. Besides, you need a harbormaster.

1) Our waterfront cannot be compared to Benicia's in any way. They are on the silt free side of the river and have also developed the entire marina area with upscale housing and facilities.
2) We can talk and fuss all we want but a new pristine marina that requires only "average" regular maintenance isn't possible here due to the geological conditions of the tidal area.
3) How would a marina isolated at the far end of Ferry Street benefit the downtown merchants or the citizens of Martinez?
4) A cafe and/or restaurant isn't enough. The entire area would have to be cleaned up and "beautified". Who would go there for expensive dinning and park in a lot with piles of dirt.

If the idea is to build the marina area up to draw visitors and customers then it has to be done appropriately. Personally, I would like to see the entire downtown become prosperous and have no vacant stores - now that would be worthwhile in my mind!

That's what the DBAW funding and council's misrepresenting of the gift coming at every election cylce, with staffs help, was about. You tell people you have the money when it is in the bank. Or it is fraud, false talk. No letter of understanding no contract, just staff telling us the money is coming.

In terms of the restaurants and other public accessible uses. Those can be done now, all levels of fair not expensives or exclusive. A good breakfast house, cafe for lunch, dinners for all levels, just as are up and down the strait. The point is somepart of the project is built up front the part than everyone and use.

Anyone know why the city paid Anchor QEA $250,000.00 in January 2011 only to go back and pay them another $200,000 for ?? This is my concern, the management of the money we already have and why it seems to be flying out the window with no accountability. and logic. I hope we did not waste the first 250K on a pipe dream and now its GONE!

http://9gag.com/gag/2308699?ref=fb-share

For those who were not at the Council meeting last night, a fairly complete summary of the Marina expenditures and status was made by Mitch Austin. The bottom line is that we have spent $924,000 going back to 2008 and the work done by Moffet Nichols. The Council approved spending another $225,000 last night. None of this money has gone to actually doing any physical improvements. It is amazing to hear the discussion amongst the Council members, they refuse to recognize the that the Marina as it is currently envisioned is a lost cause. Short of a possible one time donation by Shell of $500,000 they have no funding to do any repair work, dredging or deferred maintenance. More importantly, having burnt bridges, they have no viable options. Statements made by Council members regarding who is to blame and what actions should be taken with regards to long over due loans from the State DBW are an embarassment to the City of Martinez and it's Citizens. In the meantime the efforts of individuals to invest time and money in revitalizing the Downtown get lip service and little else as the limited resources of staff and money are poured into a failed Marina "Plan".

So any mention of the 200K given to Anchor QEA in 2011 and what it paid for?

Hope more people read your comments Dick - should be in the Gazette. I believe that Martinez citizens should bring in a new leadership team that will work for the good of it's businesses and residences (the city tax payers). Lowering the council's bench in city hall down to eye level of those they represent in the gallery would help - don't need "rulers" with their own agendas - just some individuals that live in and take pride in their own town. Lip service and excuses isn't ever going to work. It's heart breaking to think what that money could have done for the city. It's going to be very interesting to see what city services they are going to recommend eliminating when the budget comes up while spending all that money on nothing and also keeping their costly unneeded "perks". It's very frustrating!!!

I could not agree more with both of you....

The city council should appear on Judge Judy because she would straighten out their concept of not honoring a loan contract. Could the state foreclose on the marina? - they probably would if they could see a value in it. The council has obviously forgot that all the monies involved have come from the taxpayers be they city or state.

Would some one ask DBAW if they promised Martinez the Money that the City told everyone they had coming. Is it in writing somewhere. I would like to see this response. So the money was not really awarded, but stall and the coucil told everyone it was coming. Let's not forget this!

The approval letter must be somewhere on Mitch Austin's desk.

The point is there any documentation that we were to get any money from DBAW. It might of value to see this promise in writing.

Having spoken with DBW representatives on several occasions about plans to loan the city money, I can tell you those plans existed. There may be culpability in the handling of Marina issues, but I don't think Mitch Austin has done anything other than deal with the state in good faith.

Withmar, you of all people know where to find public documents. Come on, now.

I believe the idea to spin off the marina into it's own district has legs.

I believe those who have been thus far tasked with finding solutions are locked into a counter-productive paradigm and burdened by history.

I understand letting go of control may feel like admitting defeat but business as usual and election year politicking haven't worked.

The city of Martinez can choose to drop back and punt and hope to recover the ball in the last four minutes, or it can go for the hail mary pass.

Personally I'd like to see us adopt an attitude of No Guts, No Glory!

Doesn't the city council have access to review those same public documents and contracts also? Why don't they review the contracted conditions before making rash statements publicly. It doesn't seem very appropriate for the council that "honorably" represents the city to openly defy contractual agreements that the city agreed too for the acquisition of state tax monies. It must be recorded somewhere as $4M of state money doesn't just change hands with a verbal consent.
Now, add the cost of paying off that debt to the other costs of the marina and then compute how much positive cash flow there would be even with every possible berth rented. Maybe the city should figure out how to pay off the previous loan and consider itself lucky that the state isn't suing the city for breaching the contract.

Let's face it, the marina is a lost cause. I believe that it's sunk far too deep to be refloated. Any investement in the marina is throwing good money after bad. If it were meant to be then the solutions would not be so daunting. There has never been a viable plan for the marina since year 2000. Theres been a lot ot hyperbole but no one came to the table with a committed plan.....Why??? "Maybe the marina is just an idea whose time has passed." Think about it...there is no clear path (not even a convoluted path) to resurrect this entity. I think that we need to let it go...and hold those accountable that allowed it to deteriorate to the point of no return.